Jon Klein Part 2: Siouxsie and the Banshees, Touring, and Underground Music

In Part Two of our conversation with English guitarist Jon Klein, we go more into his experiences in the later years of the post punk band, Siouxsie and the Banshees. He mentions The Batcave nightclub in England, tour experiences, and bands he's played alongside including Iggy Pop, Nine Inch Nails, Body Count, and the Butthole Surfers.

Back again in the more shadowy depths of the Fisch Bowl, we also talk about music, genres, movies, the mainstream versus the underground, and even have a more philosophical discussion on life and death. Check out Part One if you haven't already, and then head over to Part Two to keep the conversation going!

Transcript

Welcome To The Fishbowl

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Attention, all you fish each team.

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Welcome to the Fishbowl.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

It's chat fishing.

Batcave Origins And Early Soho

SPEAKER_02 0:08

I mean, talking about Susie and the Banshees, you know, you know, one of my all-time favorite uh gothic punk rock bands. I definitely wanted to ask you about uh some stories uh from from the times of uh Susie and the Banshees and the Batcave. And I mean there's again, like I you know, I'm like we could probably spend you know numerous episodes talking about uh experiences.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Well I mean I guess I first met those guys at the Batcave when we opened it because uh I mean we only ever owned the Batcave because we just wanted a club to play at at the time. So yeah, there was there was no um there was there was no idea about creating you know a club empire or anything. Where was there was no master plan, it was just like you know, there was nowhere to play in London at the time, and we had a few, yeah, Ollie, the singer and the band was kind of good at setting stuff up and getting people motivated. And uh so we just kind of did it. And we just signed a publishing deal actually, and the publish the publishers, and that was from a self-promoted kid, yeah. And the publishers we have, they they have the lease of Trident Studios, which is the that's the studio where they recorded the early Queen stuff, they recorded Wiggy Aladdin saying, The Transformer was recorded there, just right in the heart of Soho London, just around the corner from where the Marquee was at the time. So it's an amazing place to be. Because we were hanging out there quite a lot. We'd we'd met some people that were running a live promotion company from there, and I and we were chatting with them, and just the idea of doing the weekly club kind of came out, came up. So yeah, I was kind of f found a guy that had a license on a good place, which was an old burlesque club from what was it, 1927. I think that place had been opened to. And um, so we just started doing Wednesday nights there. So every because Soho was really this where everyone was hanging out, a lot of music, yeah, artists and stuff will be hanging out there anyway, or the record companies were there, or the publishing companies were there. So midweek when you didn't have the weekend idiots around, there was the perfect place to kind of hang out. And yeah, the Bantu's ended up being kind of pretty much um yeah,

Auditioning For The Banshees

SPEAKER_00 2:42

regulars. So when they'd fired a guitar player, I my name just ended up on a list of people to audition. So I had to stand in line next to uh you know next to the other guys. It was quite funny. Apparently, the kid that came out of the room as a really young kid was auditioning before me, and apparently Sue had just gone up to him and pulled the jack plug out of his guitar, said next. That is and and um but yeah, I remember uh we had a f our first week of rehearsing, and oh god, then we we went out for a night out in a in a club in London, and oh god, I think Sue and Budgie were pretty much dry at that point. They were going down the gym and

The Limelight Fight Story

SPEAKER_00 3:30

being super healthy, but everyone was having a drink that night to celebrate. And uh who's that guy there was uh Boy George's friend Fat Tony, he's quite a well-known DJ in London. And I think we'd been we walked into the London Limelight Club, into the VIP section, and Susie was given this roped-off area, and it was it was this guy, DJ Fat Tony's it was his area for his birthday. He was off in the toilets doing ledger cocaine with other people. And then apparently his boyfriend turns up and starts fawning all over Susie. Oh so when he comes back, he gets really angry. You know, he really, he starts really, he's poked up, saying, Wa, blah blah blah, you're an old has been anyway, blah blah blah, really insulting her. And then turns around, goes to walk off, and Susie just goes, Oh, are you? And he turns around and I've got to jump jump in and help. There's a few of us had to jump in and try and break that one up. That was my first night out ever with the Banshees. Yeah, we'd picked up our wives and bits and and and partners on the way down, you know. So it was just like, oh, this is my new job. Well, not that it was ever a job, but you know. It was yeah. Welcome to the yeah, what, yeah. What was it, Budgie? Yeah, Budgie said something once they they told me that I got the job, it welcome aboard, but it did sound like kind of uh a warning about stormy waters. The interesting

Touring On The Edge Of Conflict

SPEAKER_00 5:18

thing about the Banshees though was uh well an interesting thing was the first manager that they had because I I saw three managers come and go, my tell me all of them. But the first manager, he had been a um booking agent club and promoter. So live doing live shows. They were really adept at make making a good business out of that. So they played a lot, they played in really interesting places as well. They were the first English band into Argentina after the Falklands War.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

I mean, we went into Slovenia as the first date of one tour like less than a week before the you know the war was supposedly ended. So you didn't really know if you were gonna end up hitting kind of armed problems along the way. I remember talking to like the agent on that tour saying, like, what the fuck are you doing? Driving three articulated trucks into a war zone, you know, and and and and the agent he was there with his video camera going, Oh, I'll be fine, just make some tank noises and rocket noises from my film. So yeah, that uh actually the first tour that we did with them was really interesting. We did a couple of shows on the Bowie Glass spider tour at the which is the Dodgers Stadium Anaheim in Orange County that I do believe has been demolished since sad to see. There's a few places that we played with the banshees that that were were demolished. Well, and with the Bowie connection, so there was that one, the Universal Amphitheatre was the other one as well. Which I played that a few times with them. I loved that. Because I'm and and I never realized till later on that that was where they filmed a lot of the cracked actor Bowie documentary, was the universal because it didn't have a roof on at that point, they're filming Bowie there. So you assume it's probably in the Hollywood Bowl, but it was actually the universal amphitheatre, and it's only when I go back and see some of the backstage footage, it's like, oh my god. Yeah, yeah, it was um yeah, no, really interesting. So we did play really interesting places.

Berlin Amphitheater And Iggy Pop

SPEAKER_00 7:39

I think the first gig that I played with the Batheys ever was mad. It was um it was a Hitler youth amphitheatre next to the Olympic Stadium in Berlin. So to get to the stage, you had to walk. There's a little hill with trees all on it, with a tunnel going through it that zigzagged so that snipers couldn't shoot down it. Um I've seen videos since of black and block Rammstein playing there. But so we turned up to that, and uh the second on the bill supporting us playing before us was Iggy Pop. I was just oh my god mind-blowing experience, you know, because I was such a and well, still am huge Iggy Pop fan. Same here, same. I've got an and in that band, because what was it? They were doing Sister Midnight, and they had Larry Adamson from magazine and Nick K. Bagseeds on bass doing Sister Midnight. It was bloody amazing. Oh my god. So that's so that it was a bit like a bit confusing world to suddenly step

Lollapalooza 1991 Chaos

SPEAKER_00 8:54

into, you know.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Yeah. And then I suppose the other big one with the badge would have been us being on the 1991, the first Lola Palooza tour.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Yes, I had definitely had some questions about that, memorable experiences, nine-inch nails.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, which was weird, yeah. Well, because I guess I you know I knew about nine-inch nails at that time, but it was weird seeing them playing at lunchtime in the daylight with all this smoke and smashing their gear up and stuff. And yeah, but what was it? I think because they used to, yeah, they used they used to buy a load of cheap guitars in every town and the road crew would spray paint them up and stuff, and then they smash them up, you know. I think before the end of that tour, that they left the tour, I don't know, a week or so, but a coup a week or two before the end of the tour to go to Europe because a support gig with Guns N' Roses, who were huge at that point in Europe. I don't think they had a good time on that. But anyways, at the last gig in America, they they'd uh they'd uh you know sent a memo out to the other band saying, Oh they had a list of people that got them on, come on stage and smash a guitar up with us, it'll be great fun. And Dave Navarro was one of those guys, and he and I was kind of friends with Dave on that tour, and he just bought a video camera and he's like, John, John, can can you video this for me? It'll be great, you know, and I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So everyone's coming on stage, grabbing a guitar, you know, there's your rack full of $50 guitars. And I saw one of Iced T and Body Cat. He had all the guy in the LA radio gear. This guy must have been like two meters tall. It was like an enormous dude. And I'm kind of looking through the viewfinder thought, oh yeah, let's follow him, yeah. And I I I don't know, unless unless I'm going completely senile, I'm sure that what I saw was him walk past the $50 rack and pick up a vintage Gibson Explorer and turn it into matchwood. But yeah, that was the that was that it was just that was a pretty crazy tour, anyways, like all around. Uh, what was

Butthole Surfers And Stage Antics

SPEAKER_00 11:13

the other funny one I saw? The bathole surfers were on that tour.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

And I went to uh I went out front to see them when we got to where is it? I think that it's amazing. I can remember where things happened on that tour. I think that so this would have been what Toronto, some big stadium Toronto, and so Gibby used to come on, and what one of his first things used to come on with his shotgun and smash a bottle of Jack Daniels on his head, which you didn't find out till later was a wax movie prop, you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

But I remember there were all these girls at the front going, Gibby, Gibby, Gibby, can't take the piss. And um he took his socks off, and this must be that's a month into the tour. So it probably is four weeks, he's been wearing those socks.

SPEAKER_04 12:05

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

The audience is like it's like the passing of the red soon. So whenever I I first met him, I when someone dragged me into their changing room because it was it was right next to the stage. I remember he came in and said, Hey, hi there, how many people have you never seen before in your fucking life in your dressing room? My name's Gibby. Meet my wart as he's shaking my hand, showing me his wart in and then tells me, I'm seeding right now. So he was this kind of bonkers guy, yeah, like really nutty. But but then one night I accidentally ended up in a car with him and one of the girls from Gaffin Records. I think I think it was maybe driving back from Shoreline up to San Francisco. So in a in a motor for an hour or whatever. So and I'm with the guy with the socks and the shotgun and the Jack Daniels bottles with the seeding wart, and he's chatting to the girl from the label, and it's just like he's he's talking about you know American radio science and promotion, and it's just like, hang on, it's just the same guy, and he just sounds like a record company employee. I guess he did tour management when he wasn't working with the bottoles and stuff, right? But I was amazed that suddenly he he just clicked and it was like Jekyll and Hyde. He just kind of turned into this like yeah, super switched on, kind of academic guy that knows what's happening.

Why Some Cities Get Skipped

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah, really not what I expected.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Well, all the bands you just you just listed, that that's that's like my era, that's like my childhood. You know, I I I remember the 90s vividly and like the movies, the music, this the the vibe, you know, like it was like literally party decade. And it's a little too much, unfortunately, but part of the apprenticeship, isn't it? Right. Comes with the territory, but but I mean, first of all, you mentioned Dave Navarro, Jane's addiction, one of my all all-time favorite.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Well, it's psychedelic, isn't it? I got you.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

It is, but it but it's also like they're so much more. Like you can't even really like fit them into one specific genre, because like, you know, so some tracks are more alternative, some are psychedelic, some are like literally klezmer, you know. Yeah, it's like some are, you know, I guess could be considered more proggy. But there's like there's mellowness in it, like there's there's they're cut they're all over the place. And Navarro, one of my favorite guitarists from the like that that era. And I and I've seen Jane's addiction every single time they came to Pittsburgh, where actually Trend Reznor's from Nine Inch Nails. From Pittsburgh, yes, right. I think the last time he played here though, for whatever reason, he didn't get a good response. So he always goes to Pittsburgh. Apparently, I don't know why, but apparently he uh he skips Pittsburgh, his hometown, and goes to Philly. Where where I like listen, I'm not as I'm not really a sports person, you know, but I know Pittsburgh being a big sports town with the Steelers and the Penguins, not so much the pirates anymore, but still like definitely the penguins, definitely the Steelers. And with the Steelers and the Eagles, there's a big rivalry. Now, I don't really care too much about that. You know, sports peoples can have that beef. My beef with Philly is that they take the better shows from Pittsburgh.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

You know, like all the bands that I that you know I that I really, really want to see always seem to skip Pittsburgh. Like they'll they'll go to the trend I see is they go to Columbus or Cleveland, and then they go to Philly. They totally skip skip Pittsburgh, you know, and I'm like, why? You know, like like you know, there's there's been so many good shows with artists that like and you know, I mean, I could see driving like you know, an hour or something, but like Philly from from Pittsburgh to Philly, that's like you know, you you need to like stay overnight, you know, yeah, unless unless you're you're doing cocaine.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Yeah, yeah, some of the means you can drive like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

You know. I'm not I'm not condoning that, but you know, you know, you need some some amphetamines or something to get to get you through. Because otherwise you you need you need to spend the night. But I mean the gorillas played there, uh blur, the lead sticker from Blur. Like every band seems to go there and just like skips Pittsburgh altogether. I'm like, Pittsburgh still gets good shows, but Philly by far gets the better ones. Like the best of the best go go there. So maybe if I if I get some swing here in the city with the booking agencies, I'll I'll have a talk with them and be like, excuse me, I know John Klein from Susie and the Banshees. You know, I got I got some swing, you know. I know I know these bands. Like people want that to see the shows, you know, give the people what they want.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Good luck.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

You know, but that's that's that's just my personal observation. But uh Butthole Surfer is another one of my I mean, I I wish I could have seen them live. Talk about live performance, like a uh hell of a live performance. Body count ice tea, another one of my all-time favorite bands from that era. I mean, I love Ice T. I love his rap stuff, but when he went with body count, now that's

Soundtracks And Trent Reznor’s Shift

SPEAKER_02 18:43

that was actually and on that tour, because you you had, you know, I'm not I was a bit pissed off because like you know, the Banshees were kind of everyone else was allowed to have proper big guitars right out front, whereas the banshees at that point were a bit more kind of pulled in and kind of yeah, it it wasn't so visceral.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

But the riff that the riff that everyone was playing on that tour was a was a body count. What was that? There goes the neighborhood. Yeah, you could hear it coming out of dressing rooms as you walk through the compound, it was really funny.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

The the their first album, I mean, that it's a hell of an album. Uh hell of an album. I mean, the the track that what's it called? Like I forget that I forget the actual name of the track, but it's like it's the opening track to Body Count. Yeah, Body Counts in the House. That's what it is. Body Counts in the House, you know, here and that, and and I remember because I'm also a big like basically the cast of the expendables are like my my heroes. So like I remember watching uh Universal Soldier when when that came out, and at the end of the movie, they play Body Counts in the House, and it just is like the the perfect kind of like jam to just with so many movies in the 90s, especially the action movies, you know, just the the even even like comedies and dramas and just cinema in general in the 90s was like with with the music scene, you know, and and the going on simultaneously some of the best soundtracks to come out of a decade, you know. And also the the band specifically doing you know songs for soundtracks for the films. Uh I mean that that's like a big thing, I guess, then that has turned into a whole I guess contract deal now, especially with like the James Bond movies.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah, yeah. Well, interesting one in that part, I suppose, is what is Nine Inch Nails, the Trent Antarctic's.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Because I mean their stuff was I think one of the first ones I saw was what was it? It was the um the American remake of Dragon Tattoo. They did a Zeppelin cover on the front end of that. But I tell you what really sold me on them was that was that Netflix Vietnam series that they curated the soundtrack on, as well as making stuff for. It was really, really good.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

I mean yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. Um and I was even gonna say Trend Reznor and Atticus, like they're like they're they're the new like like Tangerine Dream, Vin Vangelis. Yeah, yeah, the the musician, the the Han Zimmer, you know, you know, that that were musicians that had a you know hell of a run, but just found that like with the way the industry is kind of like you know, turned into at least mainstream wise, you know, it's it's not really about like again artistic freedom. It's about like what can we, you know, unpackage it and you know sell it and uh in mass uh quantities. You know, and I think Trend Reznor even said something in an interview not that long ago about how his personal belief on the current state of music is that it sucks. Which I mean I mean you know yes and no you know I mean yeah you know I'm like usually in most cases the mainstream is yeah shit you know but where the mainstream is shit that's where the underground thrives. Of course you know and and it's only a matter of time before the underground becomes mainstream. You know that and that's that's my personal belief based on you know the entire history going from the the 60s to the 70s to the 80s to the 90s to where we're at now. I kind of just everything we talked about I guess the first hour of our of our chat here was uh all the awesome music that is out there both in the states and in the EU and UK and even Scotland and in Ireland has some fantastic music right now. There's there's

New Wave Grunge And New Bands

SPEAKER_02 23:33

band and even on the topic of grunge this is a totally new genre that I see forming on in like a big way that's actually developed its own subgenre name called New Wave Grunge. And it's like it's like there was grunge then there was post grunge which was like creed and nickelback and you know basically the record industry industries trying to capitalize on guys who sound like oh yeah who's that there was that English band that were part of that as well what's his name Kevin Rostale Bush Bush yeah that would you say that's post grunge no I would consider them grunge that was well because they they were 90s yeah I I remember listening to to Bush growing up in the 90s they would they're they're they're they're grunge um post grunge would be 2000s kind of so nickelback you say yeah yeah nickelback creed those are the two big ones that stand out to me that would be post grunge it's it's like they're trying to sound like the bands from the 90s but it's like not anywhere near the par. It's like you can tell the sound is old it's it's it's like more studio produced you know like the edginess is gone and and and then like it kind of kind of died after that and and new wave grunge though is like bands kids that are in like their mid to late 20s and they grew up you know pretty much like in the the late 90s 2000s listening to all the stuff from the 90s and basically have fused all these different sounds into like new music the one from Ireland that I interviewed they're called Strangers with guns they they are one hell of a band three three piece set and they sound like a mixture of Black Flag the Melvins Allison Chains and they actually just I think either earlier this year or towards the end of last year released like a rex of like remix or redux of like their original debut album and they actually have Henry Rollins and Cuss helping you out on tracks. And they're there their second album they have a song in my opinion it's the best song on the album I forget the exact title but it's like something like my name is Henry Rollins something like that. Awesome awesome band. One from the UK that's huge now I think they actually won a Grammy with their uh their first uh debut album Wet Leg. Yeah yeah they're they're huge now band from Australia that's just blowing up they actually just played uh with the foo fighters down there down on the was they're called the Full Flower Moon Band. Right and and the other thing I was gonna say that I see like a huge trend kind of emerging is female it's either all female bands like bandmates playing rock or it's like female vocalists backed by guys or like half and half but it's female vocalists and the female like vocalists are like the main kind of like writers artists in it of the of the bands I see like a a big kind of like a merging thing in like rock shoe gaze just like the the all the subgenres of rock I see much like Susie and the Banshees you know like the the huge surge and rise of female musicians there as like a whole piece set or half and half or like a a girl backed by all guys as like a a new kind of like emerging trend and all the music that all those bands are making together are phenomenal lots of good stuff to keep an eye on for or an ear out for yeah an ear out for yeah yeah yeah I'm glad I'm glad I got you hooked yeah yeah no no most definitely well it it's easy to say nah music shit these days but my god there's so much being made you know it's yeah and and and I guess I mean well everyone cle a lot of people kind of cling to their own music or and it is kind of curious what I feels like part of life life's journey is you do revisit places and music you always kind of touch base

Reboots Remakes And Timeless Films

SPEAKER_02 29:10

with your initial kind of influences anyways. Right right just because that's what they are if they're they're you know just part of that very primal initial impulse to want to make a noise or to be attracted to music but then I suppose that glues glues itself to you at a certain age which is why a lot of people then become very possessive about the music that they liked or yeah yeah yeah well it's also like I I I I'm also like a big conspiracy theorist especially with music and film and it's it's it I mean I I don't consider myself like one of the zombies you know I I like to I like to to you know enjoy what I listen to listen to like not just one thing but like variety and all the subgenres of things you know especially if I like something I want to hear that as much of it as I can hear as many different bands that make that type of genre of music and then I want to learn about the the subgenres and listen to those bands and you know do the same thing over and over. Same thing with film. You know if I find a a genre film or a director or a writer or a producer you know or a team that you know was involved with making certain types of films whether it's horror, sci-fi action you know drama comedy whatever I like to really you know research those people and those actors writers you know musicians like whatever and then like you know you know like really learn about the the craft and the music the film the writing like everything that goes into you know arts and entertainment and those are the people that like you know I admire I look up to and I look at as as like inspirations for me whether it's in you know what I like how I think you know what I like to watch you know and I mean definitely as you get older and you know I'm starting to experience this now with like how everything is like a reboot and a remake and I'm now at the age where like I'm starting to see stuff that like I'm like but they just that why are they making that like it's it's not even like you know then I think to myself well I guess I guess it is like 20 years you know uh they haven't got that film with mobile phones in it.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah they need to have smartphones in it.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Right right right and that that's like the only thing that newer movies like you know from the 2000s on you know with cell phones it's like that's what keeps them dated you know is the the phones and the technology you know before like movies from like the 80s where it was like sci-fi stuff like you know you you like you know like you look at the running man with like Schwarzenegger you know and you look at some of the the stuff in there and it's like it's all dated but like that was you know high tech stuff of of of of the time you know and there's certain movies that like still are like forever timeless even even though like you know times have obviously moved on for instance I'll say Terminator 2 I'll say Terminator 2 judgment day still holds up to this day.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Jurassic Park the first one still holds up to this day and there's there's a few other ones you know well blade runner you're blade runner yeah I was just gonna say blade runner well the interesting thing with blade blade runner is it's um well I bought the box set years ago it came with uh

Blade Runner Craft And Big Ideas

SPEAKER_00 33:18

it became it came with a DVD just on the production stuff on the model making and that whole side because that one was to what generally seen as the high watermark of of physically constructed right special effects pre-CGI and oh my god it's insane it's really yeah from them I mean have you ever seen uh you know the title sequence of LA with yes yeah have you ever seen pictures of that model? I have I have every explosion was a multiple exposure from one of the cameramen that had done a shoot you know just filming flames that he already had and and yeah what other buildings were made out of spaceships that they stole from like you know the props department of Star Wars stuff or whatever or even what was it one of the matte painters on that was a genius there was something because and I've seen some before and after of the mat painting where you know it's only three quarters of the frame as a mat painting done you know on a glass but that guy was so good apparently that it was somewhat like he could paint it the right wrong colour so that you could actually they they could actually step over another step in the in in in the processing. So you I don't know so what one of the chemical processes of developing megs this guy the map painter knew he could paint the other colour before I know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Yeah yeah I was just like what wow and I just I just found this out that the whole monologue that Ruther Howard says about guys that that was like he came to Ridley Scott but right before they were supposed to yeah the tears in the rain yeah yeah yeah yeah but it's a bit like what you were saying with Scorsese and um it's right he's just like I I mean Rutger Howard kind of stole the movie with that line didn't he he he totally did I mean I mean also like it it it it made the film like it was it was already I mean in my in my mind like Blade Runner is more than just a a film a concept it's it's literally a visual piece of art yeah you know from from the music the score from Vangelis to the way it was shot to just everything in it and and that ending you know one it made the film so much more profound you know with with the concept of you know we're Roy Runcker Howard's character the whole purpose of them trying to find more life you know more to live longer which is really I mean isn't that what us as humans are are pretty much doing right now you know whether it's through AI or you know autonomous you know robots or androids whatever you know or musk with I mean he he literally was at some summit or something some thing and he was he was asked a question about do you think that we'll be able to you know solve death you know and musk being musk you know pretty much like gave his answer and it was like going on a pretty long rant about how he thinks we we'd be able to you know at some point yes definitely figure out how to solve death but then he also just for the record right after he goes on a big long rant about how yeah we could probably conquer death then he's like but don't get me wrong I mean there's a lot of benefits to death being like you know a thing you know and I think there's a reason why you know you know we you know have a a certain lifespan but at the same time you know I've gone to a bunch of retirement dinners with my my dad and I'm learning more and more that people are living longer much much longer than expected versus where we were a hundred years ago. So you know it's like a kind of double-edged sword you know where it's like the more medical you know breakthroughs we have that can prolong life you know we'll ultimately you know I think I think it is kind of like inevitable that at some point we'll get to like technological advancement where if if we can't like stop death altogether we'd definitely be able to put people in suspended animation and like you know keep them like like what was that Christopher Nolan movie Interstellar Interstellar yeah yeah and and also like it with with like Alien the Alien franchise where you know they just went into suspend animation and you know they you know stayed the same age and you know it was like they were you know like like you know the the the ticking time of a life stopped right where it was and you know it it'd be nice to to think like that you know but there's a worry that the assholes will live forever that is exactly that that too that too because that's that's where we're currently at right now to too too many assholes out there.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Sadly but yeah but uh I I try not to get political yeah because now I'd complete this keep away from that actually in terms of lifespan stuff did you ever read was it the Chinese trilogy the three body problem Netflix made a show of one of them bases the trilogy it's a really really interesting story I I have not but I will definitely have to try and track that down. Like it the the premise is where it starts off as a cultural revolution where the Chinese woman's

Three-Body Problem And Sci-Fi Obsessions

SPEAKER_00 39:48

dad is like a scientist gets killed and her revenge is to kind of let let alien life forms know that there's life on earth so well it's a bit of a spoiler that Earth ends up getting invaded but the invaders aren't going to arrive for 250 years it's really it's such an interesting story and the actual the science of it is quite mind bending. Yeah sounds interesting very interesting I I will I I'm a sucker for like alien like you know I mean I'm really into that stuff just in general like and I can't remember what year that was that six in Lu I I as you L U I maybe his surname is that three body problem yeah okay I will definitely definitely definitely okay I was I will definitely track that down that's it's right up my alley I I like I like stuff that like you know makes you think and like messes with your head you know I guess that's why yeah yeah this one totally does that that's why I like Philip K.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Dick so much who you know exactly roadblade runner um among uh other stuff because like my first R-rated movie was Total Recall at age five so that that thus uh my obsession with the expendables yeah awesome well we are right

New Album And Writing About Tech

SPEAKER_02 41:18

about at time here I think it's starting to get a little probably on the darker side I can tell in uh the UK there obviously so much more we we can talk about that that I I knew this was gonna happen we'd probably get a good two hours and then see you know we have to stop some point but John I have a couple closer questions for you yeah and uh then we can wrap things up here first one I wanted to ask you any upcoming projects other things to promote and then the last question and this is where it gets a little fishy if you could be any fish or sea creature what fish or sea creature would you be and that that that's uh counts uh real made up mythological dinosaurs all anything's on the table uh give me a minute on that one well in terms of uh what uh what's kind of well I've got this album that's just come out with Jar Wobble Automated Paradise which has been very interesting project actually and I made a I must have made almost half a dozen records with him kind of since the pandemic started so but this one kind of um this one it was never really a plan to make a record actually we we we run a community music project together so we're just running a lot of jam sessions and and recording workshops we're just making music regularly and it is just kind of one that popped out which is really interesting because I don't know something happens when you know when you sign a contract and plan a a record and then you start writing it and then you start recording it and you start mixing it it's you know it's a very structured kind of process that we've just been kind of making music it feels more like I kind of what happens when you're actually in a band when you're young you're just making music you know right um Wobble came out with some really good l lyrically he's just been kind of really marking where we're at right now just you know the tech evolution and the anxieties and everything around around that you know so it's uh quite curious actually I mean I didn't really feel feel drawn to kind of write lyrics this time around.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Wobble seems to have it so well covered because he's he's so well read on philosophy and stuff that he always put some He can be really like the you know the east end working boy like blah blah blah, really blunt and can come across kind of you know really badass, but actually there's a big sensitive side of him that really does see things from other places. It's been good. I mean talking about that place because what I suppose the album starts with with someone in a spaceship fading away from a you know an earth that's on fire and the last track or it goes through a whole load of post-punk ramps and kind of I suppose or protest songs almost on there before landing in somewhere that reminds me of like kind of another green world, that kind of Eno S- Space. But um it's curious though, doc documenting this whole tech thing. I mean, I was thinking about it the other day because I got into tech because of music. So I got in quite early, you know.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yeah, I was computer savvy, you know. I had a laptop when it was really rare for people to have laptops. Yeah, you never saw people in cafes with laptops, you know. You had to be, you know, it was just that price of a bloody car to have a laptop

Lifelong Learning And AI Arrives

SPEAKER_00 45:22

at that point. So and so then to suddenly watch how quickly the next generation comes along, especially the babies that are brought up on iPads, you know.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

So all of a sudden, you know I kind of go sometimes I really miss the tech that I had when I was younger, you know, when it was computers that didn't upgrade themselves every bloody day, you know. So it was more like tools that you learned that that were based on concepts that were out there in the real world, especially when it's audio, and then you learn the computer kind of the tech kind of aspects of that. But it was it it wasn't upgraded every week and redesigned by a 12-year-old, you know. It was like, oh yeah, because all of a sudden, I mean I remember the first time I got a smartphone, it was because like I just decided I needed to learn how to swipe.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

You know, because I for me it was just like touch screens. Touch screens are great, but on the other hand, I don't know, the fun filmmaker, do I want a screen that's covered in fingerprints? You know, so I was never convinced that you know Right, right. But I re I I remember a friend of mine in education, she she was still works at the Institute of Education at London University, yeah. And um when I was back at art school, which is ran just after the millennium, she was coining the buzz phrase at that time was lifelong learning. In the future, you won't go to university, learn your stuff, and then use it for a career. You will always have to continue the learning. And and that that and I'd never heard of that before, you know, let alone AI. Oh my god. I mean, you know, that was what 10 years ago, maybe, you know, that I first started hearing the term AI. And science fiction, isn't it? I remember thinking I was over in Sweden and my friend's son was really bright in maths, so you know, he was he was telling me about AI for a possible you know, degree course that he was gonna do, university course, and here it is.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

I know, I know. I mean, I the fact that I use chat GBT for I like to say what you're supposed to use it for versus like you know, asking it stuff like you know, or like you know, what type of guy should I date? What type of girl should I date? Yeah, you know, chat GBT, tell me, am I pretty? Chat GBT, tell me, you know, like you know, like like all this insanity, like I mean it in that that is like real science fiction in itself.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

It is, it we're back to Philip K. Dick, aren't we? Really?

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

And and and it's kind of um I mean right. Um I was kind of happy that John was writing about it. Sometimes I think, oh, it's a bit on the nose. Is it poetic? But actually, it's so big. I mean, I was I was doing some work as a filmmaker, where was that? That's over ten years ago. Jesus, maybe that's heading towards 15 years ago. But I was working for a Japanese uh production company, and there was at the London Business School, the director, she was a writer that had had a hit book in Japan. What was it called? The shift. And it was just talking about with you know with the oncoming tech, because that would have been by the year that the smartphone happened. What was gonna happen? How are your kids gonna get like jobs? What do they need to study? What you know, what what is the terrain gonna kind of look like in the exactly so they had a little think tanks going with government departments, with various business organizations and different stuff, and and yeah, it was a massive hit. The Japanese loved it. So I went I went out filmed an interview with her, and it was really kind of curious. Well, she gave me a copy of her book, so I did read it, and in her book, at that point, they would kind of you know their predictions, this is the what, 2010-11 that one of their case case studies or examples is a guy wakes up in South America, he yeah, he plans his day with his personal organizer. And then um then he's gonna what he's gonna he's gonna operate a brain set do a brain surgery on someone in the in Russia or China or somewhere. So he down he downloads his software that he rents by the minute. And it's an all before subscription model.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

And I I remember think it was just sci-fi, here we are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Yeah, exactly. And and even going back to another one of the most famous, brilliant filmmakers of all time, Stanley Kubrick, with with talking about music and scores and and conceptual films, Clarkwork Orange, you know, 2001.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Uh, you know, I think that I think Wobble was thinking about 2001 on the first track on on this album that we've got, Ultimate to Paradise. There's definitely a bit of Hal in there. But no, no, he doesn't do what Hal does in that film. But I hope not.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

I hope not. Yeah. Awesome, awesome.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

So so do you want your last question about a sea creature?

My Octopus Teacher And Closing

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Yes. If you could be a fish slash sea creature slash living, prehistoric, mythical, any any type of sea sea dwelling creature, what what sea creature would you be?

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Oh god, well the one I had the biggest crush on was that uh what what was that film about the octopus? No, no, uh no. Um what was that about? Uh uh uh uh uh an octopus. Jellyfish was it. Jellyfish. No, it was it was an octopus. It was I think the film's called My Octopus My Octopus Teacher. Let me just double check that. It's oh god, it's the most beautiful film. Yeah, My Octopus Teacher. I've heard some people that like come out against the film for very uh curious reasons, but there's a guy that makes friends with this creature that's kind of almost like an alien life form. But yeah, if you get a chance to watch it, I'd be interested to hear your take on it.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

I will definitely check.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

You said it's called My Octopus Teacher.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

My octopus teacher. I I will look that up and I will look up the trilogy of books that yeah, um three body problem. That's free body problem and my octopus. Okay, I will I will check both those out, and hopefully by the next time we uh yeah, we uh we chat.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

We can we can pick it up and I'll get a whole list from you.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

That's typical me. You know, over exaggerate, but also promote the hell out of what what needs to be promoted, what's needs more ears and and listenership to help, you know, literally, you know, my my my ultimate goal, you know, I I I could leave this earth a happy man, not anytime soon. You got a long long long uh a lot to do here, but if if if I could know that I was one of the main reasons that you know the next wave genre, you know, iteration of rock, you know, because there's a lot of iterations going on right now. Even if it's short-lived like punk and grunge, but that it it it it still has like a timeless impact, you know, yeah, just just to bring about the next movement because I feel like everything that's going on in the world, like there's and I know this from talking to the bands that there's a lot of outcry uh all over the world with music and musicians that have stuff to say in reaction to what's been going on the last like 30 some years that we're at now in response and build-up. And and I and I feel that it it it it's it's it's screaming, screaming, it's like it's like a a powder keg that's ready to explode, you know, with with all this this these various different genres of the the return and resurgence of rock.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

Yeah, well, and and that really reminds me of it of what was coming up through the 80s and the 90s, you know.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

There was this this huge ground, just underground kind of thing. Exactly, exactly something exploded, you know.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

I mean and every well, I guess artistically and musically, everything changed it just like yeah, yeah, and and I I I talked about this with another band I did a while ago, it hasn't been posted yet, but that I I I think streaming and and like downloading when when it initially hit back in like the 2000s, and it was a major blow to like big artists with like that were against like Napster and Torrents and stuff like that for downloading music for free. But then like as it evolved, you got apps like Spotify, Bandcamp, Amazon Music, Pandora, you know, all these like different, you know outlets where you could, you know, again, science fiction, subscribe, you know, for a price, and you get access to all this music. And my personal belief is that one of the reasons, like now in particular, is where like we're finally at the point where like everything's getting ready to just like burst to the butt like bubbling to the top, is that I think it took a good like 20, 25 years for the streaming in terms of music to reset with streaming being a thing. And I think now we're kind of at that point where we've reset and we're kind of like back to you know ground zero for new a new era and explosion of music and rock and roll to come bubbling to the surface. And it's already starting to happen with bands like Wet Leg, Full Flower Moon Band, another one from Australia, Emile and the Sniffers.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

You know, I see like a big, big thing on the rise. So me, I'm more hopeful than anything that you know we we we are witnessing, we're living in the age where like the the next movement is literally on the surface of exploding.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Well, let's watch that space.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

Yeah, yeah, and I think that that's that's a good good a good place to end, you know, to be continued. Uh hopefully, hopefully by when this is posted and we chat next, that then movement will be uh off to a flourishing start.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Uh definitely, yeah. Well, next neck, and yeah, let's have another chat sometime. I can tell you about Jimi Hendrix's flat in London that I went to see a while ago.

SPEAKER_04 58:05

Oh my god, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

What the space?

SPEAKER_02 58:13

Definitely, definitely awesome. Well, John, it has been a true, true pleasure having you on the show. Yeah, it was amazing chat. I cannot wait to have you come take another dive into the fishbowl. Into the fishbowl head first.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Excellent, excellent.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

And and I just I hope the temperature was just right.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Yeah, no, absolutely perfect.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

Excellent, excellent. Well, take care, have a wonderful rest of your weekend, and onward and upward.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Yeah, onwards and upwards.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

As we say in the fish bowl, let's keep swimming upstream.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Sounds good, Sam. Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_02 58:57

You too. You too. Take care.

Merch Support And Final Sign-Off

SPEAKER_02 59:00

Hey there, all my fishes in the sea. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode and for being a subscriber. Your continued listenership and support means the most and helps keep the show growing to deeper and deeper depths. I want to let all my guppish in the sea know that Fishbowl has now officially partnered with FastCustom Shirts.com, where they're now selling custom Fishbowl t-shirts under their podcast and website section. Every t-shirt that's purchased helps and goes a long way to keep the show growing the deeper and deeper in higher higher depths. I also now have custom hats, beanies, handbags, pens, mouse pads, everything to make you look like the coolest looking fish in the sea, which you can DM me directly on Instagram at the Fishbowl88 or on Facebook at just the fishbowl, or you can friend request me, Sam Fish, directly and get yours today. Your continued listenership and support again means the most. It's the most important fishes that flock together. We are a school of fish and we keep the unit going. Let's all keep swimming upstream.